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		<title>Comment on Meddling with Animal Morality by markgil</title>
		<link>http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25145</link>
		<dc:creator>markgil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 19:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25145</guid>
		<description>as James said, we only need to worry about our own morality, which can in most cases be simplified to adherence to the Golden Rule extended to all beings.  a change in perspective such as being a victim of violence and exploitation instead of a perpetrator can change a person&#039;s understanding of ethics and morality in an instant.  of course, even in these cases speciesism rears it&#039;s ugly head.  i think of the recent case of the abducted girls in Ohio and the supposed offer of lifetime free hamburgers for the teens.  the extreme irony and hypocrisy of &quot;rewarding&quot; the human vicitms of abuse, enslavement and exploitation with the flesh of abused, enslaved and exploited bovine victims is unrecognized by the vast majority of people in our society.  the same goes with people of different races or sexual preference who fight for their own freedoms and equality while willingly contributing to the oppression, torture and murder of non-human animals on a daily basis.  

as Isaac Bashevis Singer so accurately observed, “In their behavior toward creatures, all men are Nazis. Human beings see oppression vividly when they&#039;re the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>as James said, we only need to worry about our own morality, which can in most cases be simplified to adherence to the Golden Rule extended to all beings.  a change in perspective such as being a victim of violence and exploitation instead of a perpetrator can change a person&#8217;s understanding of ethics and morality in an instant.  of course, even in these cases speciesism rears it&#8217;s ugly head.  i think of the recent case of the abducted girls in Ohio and the supposed offer of lifetime free hamburgers for the teens.  the extreme irony and hypocrisy of &#8220;rewarding&#8221; the human vicitms of abuse, enslavement and exploitation with the flesh of abused, enslaved and exploited bovine victims is unrecognized by the vast majority of people in our society.  the same goes with people of different races or sexual preference who fight for their own freedoms and equality while willingly contributing to the oppression, torture and murder of non-human animals on a daily basis.  </p>
<p>as Isaac Bashevis Singer so accurately observed, “In their behavior toward creatures, all men are Nazis. Human beings see oppression vividly when they&#8217;re the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought.”</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Hard Reality of Agricultural Chemistry by Mountain</title>
		<link>http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3898#comment-25141</link>
		<dc:creator>Mountain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 17:29:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3898#comment-25141</guid>
		<description>I may have misunderstood your question. If you meant where does the 2 people/acre number comes from, it isn&#039;t a statistic-- it&#039;s how much we are producing on our own land, using no chemicals. And this isn&#039;t prime farmland. When we bought it (less than 2 years ago), it was considered marginal land, unfarmable. If it had been considered farmable, we wouldn&#039;t have been able to afford it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may have misunderstood your question. If you meant where does the 2 people/acre number comes from, it isn&#8217;t a statistic&#8211; it&#8217;s how much we are producing on our own land, using no chemicals. And this isn&#8217;t prime farmland. When we bought it (less than 2 years ago), it was considered marginal land, unfarmable. If it had been considered farmable, we wouldn&#8217;t have been able to afford it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Meddling with Animal Morality by John T. Maher</title>
		<link>http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25140</link>
		<dc:creator>John T. Maher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 17:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25140</guid>
		<description>Moral codes are mostly cultural and can be considered a form of collective neurosis. Where Mountain makes an interesting point is the &quot;from our genes&quot; bit which translates behaviorism to morality in the practical sense such as: do not do something because it will harm you or your species. I would also add that one might ask is the: are we like them statement is itself a form of othering. Nietzsche seemed to think the question unnecessary</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moral codes are mostly cultural and can be considered a form of collective neurosis. Where Mountain makes an interesting point is the &#8220;from our genes&#8221; bit which translates behaviorism to morality in the practical sense such as: do not do something because it will harm you or your species. I would also add that one might ask is the: are we like them statement is itself a form of othering. Nietzsche seemed to think the question unnecessary</p>
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		<title>Comment on Meddling with Animal Morality by James</title>
		<link>http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25139</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 17:24:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25139</guid>
		<description>Great comments. Recall: I&#039;m not suggesting that animals don&#039;t have morality. I&#039;m only saying that it&#039;s hard to prove in a scientific way and that, fortunately, there is not a need to when it comes to justifying animal rights. Just to clarify.
-JM</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great comments. Recall: I&#8217;m not suggesting that animals don&#8217;t have morality. I&#8217;m only saying that it&#8217;s hard to prove in a scientific way and that, fortunately, there is not a need to when it comes to justifying animal rights. Just to clarify.<br />
-JM</p>
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		<title>Comment on Meddling with Animal Morality by Mountain</title>
		<link>http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25138</link>
		<dc:creator>Mountain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 17:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25138</guid>
		<description>We don&#039;t need to grant that many, many species have moral codes; that fact is abundantly clear, the only question is whether we choose to acknowledge it.

Many (probably most) humans think of animals as completely different from us. This is completely mistaken. 

Many AR/vegans seem to think of animals: &quot;they are so much like us.&quot; This gets the relationship right, but the direction backwards. It isn&#039;t they who are like us, it is we who are like them. We came from them.

Everything that we think of as uniquely human is actually inherited from animals. These qualities may be more complex or refined or amplified in humans, but they are the same basic qualities.

Moral codes don&#039;t come from God or rational thought; they come from our genes. Social animals evolved them in order to live successfully in social groups. They existed before Homo sapiens arrived on the scene.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We don&#8217;t need to grant that many, many species have moral codes; that fact is abundantly clear, the only question is whether we choose to acknowledge it.</p>
<p>Many (probably most) humans think of animals as completely different from us. This is completely mistaken. </p>
<p>Many AR/vegans seem to think of animals: &#8220;they are so much like us.&#8221; This gets the relationship right, but the direction backwards. It isn&#8217;t they who are like us, it is we who are like them. We came from them.</p>
<p>Everything that we think of as uniquely human is actually inherited from animals. These qualities may be more complex or refined or amplified in humans, but they are the same basic qualities.</p>
<p>Moral codes don&#8217;t come from God or rational thought; they come from our genes. Social animals evolved them in order to live successfully in social groups. They existed before Homo sapiens arrived on the scene.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Meddling with Animal Morality by Daniel Hauff</title>
		<link>http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25137</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Hauff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 17:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25137</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad to read this clearly expressed and argued fact. I am impressed by your topics and writing and wish I had stumbled upon it sooner. 

For &quot;a hot second&quot; I started to challenge that non-human animals do not adjudicate. Obviously they do not the way we do. Our belief that they &quot;live in the now&quot; (&quot;we&quot; say this about dogs for instance) does not work with other all species, nor is it always true. I had a cat who I wasn&#039;t very nice to when I was a kid - my sister&#039;s cat Puff (RIP, guy) who never forgave me for putting water on him (repeatedly - I, too, was a mean child I guess). He used to every once in a while pounce on my head essentially attacking me. I would scream and freak out and my family would sort of laugh since I had it coming. I smile thinking about it now. Elephants remember the culling of their families half-centuries later, we believe, and we&#039;ve seen them (and Sea World&#039;s cruelty confining animals in their tanks) lash out and kill &quot;handlers.&quot; 

There are no laws, etc., (and I&#039;m honestly not trying to pick at your piece because it&#039;s spot on and the fact that they may or may not have morals is just as you said as unnecessary for us to understand right now as it is for us to eat animal products). They do have some complex structures, though. I remember about 15 years ago these cats in a relatives home guarded and (we figured mourned or ... had their own little anthropomorphic service) over the loss of a kitten of their colony. The kitten, I think, was harmed or killed maybe by an outsider. My memory is foggy on all of this but the important part is that the cats in the group who cared for the kitten kept the other clan away. Interesting.

And you are so right - Jonathan Balcombe&#039;s work as groundbreaking as it is fascinating. I am eternally grateful to him for reviewing cruelty footage for Mercy For Animals investigations. He didn&#039;t want to but his perspective is huge in what his work tells us about the realities we documented undercover. 

The bar was loud, but the afternoon over a couple of beers when I got to explain to him the significance and impact as they related to the possibility that he would review cruelty footage for our cases (he had previously declined - as I think any sane person would wish to) was an afternoon well spent. He&#039;s a phenomenal being.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad to read this clearly expressed and argued fact. I am impressed by your topics and writing and wish I had stumbled upon it sooner. </p>
<p>For &#8220;a hot second&#8221; I started to challenge that non-human animals do not adjudicate. Obviously they do not the way we do. Our belief that they &#8220;live in the now&#8221; (&#8220;we&#8221; say this about dogs for instance) does not work with other all species, nor is it always true. I had a cat who I wasn&#8217;t very nice to when I was a kid &#8211; my sister&#8217;s cat Puff (RIP, guy) who never forgave me for putting water on him (repeatedly &#8211; I, too, was a mean child I guess). He used to every once in a while pounce on my head essentially attacking me. I would scream and freak out and my family would sort of laugh since I had it coming. I smile thinking about it now. Elephants remember the culling of their families half-centuries later, we believe, and we&#8217;ve seen them (and Sea World&#8217;s cruelty confining animals in their tanks) lash out and kill &#8220;handlers.&#8221; </p>
<p>There are no laws, etc., (and I&#8217;m honestly not trying to pick at your piece because it&#8217;s spot on and the fact that they may or may not have morals is just as you said as unnecessary for us to understand right now as it is for us to eat animal products). They do have some complex structures, though. I remember about 15 years ago these cats in a relatives home guarded and (we figured mourned or &#8230; had their own little anthropomorphic service) over the loss of a kitten of their colony. The kitten, I think, was harmed or killed maybe by an outsider. My memory is foggy on all of this but the important part is that the cats in the group who cared for the kitten kept the other clan away. Interesting.</p>
<p>And you are so right &#8211; Jonathan Balcombe&#8217;s work as groundbreaking as it is fascinating. I am eternally grateful to him for reviewing cruelty footage for Mercy For Animals investigations. He didn&#8217;t want to but his perspective is huge in what his work tells us about the realities we documented undercover. </p>
<p>The bar was loud, but the afternoon over a couple of beers when I got to explain to him the significance and impact as they related to the possibility that he would review cruelty footage for our cases (he had previously declined &#8211; as I think any sane person would wish to) was an afternoon well spent. He&#8217;s a phenomenal being.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Meddling with Animal Morality by Mountain</title>
		<link>http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25134</link>
		<dc:creator>Mountain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 16:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25134</guid>
		<description>Other species kill out of necessity all the time. They also kill unnecessarily all the time. To claim otherwise is just flatly false. In fact, if non-human animals only killed out of necessity, it would be powerful evidence that they have a moral code as stringent as any human morality and-- unlike us-- that they follow it without fail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Other species kill out of necessity all the time. They also kill unnecessarily all the time. To claim otherwise is just flatly false. In fact, if non-human animals only killed out of necessity, it would be powerful evidence that they have a moral code as stringent as any human morality and&#8211; unlike us&#8211; that they follow it without fail.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Meddling with Animal Morality by John T. Maher</title>
		<link>http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25133</link>
		<dc:creator>John T. Maher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 16:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25133</guid>
		<description>Looks like Eating Plants has encountered the predation problem PP lurking behind the reeds in the ethical jungle. Salt and Ritchie and Tibor Machan and his lot all give me a migraine with their classical and continental emphasis on ethical consistency within a bounded universe -- all that stuff works fine until you realize you are not within a bounded universe. Even the excellent Steve Cooke (The Thrifty Philosopher website and many books), who dealt with this in 1990s and may publish on it again) with whom I completely disagree does not share my views on the PP which are simply: all life involved death and killing and the choices of individual of any species have ecological consequences. Following that prey should have a chance to &quot;contribute&quot;, by being killed, to ecological equilibrium as part of a systems theory view in a anthropological way such as Strathern writes about in the human context where she discussed tribal New Guinea women consenting and wanting to be given to another clan to satisfy a tribal debt. 

Anyways Machan&#039;s work on the PP presupposes that animals can not be moral agents (I disagree) and he only assigns so-called choice-protecting rights for moral agents and interest-protecting rights for moral patients (prey and marginal cases such as mentally incapacitated humans).  Machan argues that humans owe those possessing rights positive duties of aid while maintaining that humans do not owe a duty to aid those only possessing interest-protecting rights.  Cooke has, and I disagree, termed Machan&#039;s work as a “non-speciesist” approach because Machan supposedly treats ‘likes alike’ in basing his classification for determining when a duty is owed on moral agency and by omitting dignity rights which others, such as Singer and Regan, extend to marginal cases (This was to a large degree Cora Diamond&#039;s famous point about Singer/Regan in &quot;Eating Animals and Eating People&quot;).  I argue that Machan can not be “non-speciesist” because his argument is premised upon a denial of animal agency.
 	In February, 2013 Steve Wise debated philosopher Tibor Machan at Columbia Law School concerning The Predation Problem and attempted to refute Machan’s position by extending moral agency along scientific lines to certain animals based upon cognitive research. While Wise&#039;s work is undoubtedly an improvement in legal technology, it does not completely address the unresolved issue of agency in animals or speciesism. 

 Perhaps Aldo Leoplod had it right when he wrote in this essay &quot;Thing Like  Mountain&quot;, which is ostensibly a meditation upon shooting a she wolf, that each act of predation by a trophic predator has a role in reaching equilibrium and that is a very different type of moral argument than the one size fits all confines of the PP along the lines or moral rights has to offer.  Incidentally, Posthumanists would agree with Leopold and think the entire concept of the PP is ridiculous and epitomizes such limitations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like Eating Plants has encountered the predation problem PP lurking behind the reeds in the ethical jungle. Salt and Ritchie and Tibor Machan and his lot all give me a migraine with their classical and continental emphasis on ethical consistency within a bounded universe &#8212; all that stuff works fine until you realize you are not within a bounded universe. Even the excellent Steve Cooke (The Thrifty Philosopher website and many books), who dealt with this in 1990s and may publish on it again) with whom I completely disagree does not share my views on the PP which are simply: all life involved death and killing and the choices of individual of any species have ecological consequences. Following that prey should have a chance to &#8220;contribute&#8221;, by being killed, to ecological equilibrium as part of a systems theory view in a anthropological way such as Strathern writes about in the human context where she discussed tribal New Guinea women consenting and wanting to be given to another clan to satisfy a tribal debt. </p>
<p>Anyways Machan&#8217;s work on the PP presupposes that animals can not be moral agents (I disagree) and he only assigns so-called choice-protecting rights for moral agents and interest-protecting rights for moral patients (prey and marginal cases such as mentally incapacitated humans).  Machan argues that humans owe those possessing rights positive duties of aid while maintaining that humans do not owe a duty to aid those only possessing interest-protecting rights.  Cooke has, and I disagree, termed Machan&#8217;s work as a “non-speciesist” approach because Machan supposedly treats ‘likes alike’ in basing his classification for determining when a duty is owed on moral agency and by omitting dignity rights which others, such as Singer and Regan, extend to marginal cases (This was to a large degree Cora Diamond&#8217;s famous point about Singer/Regan in &#8220;Eating Animals and Eating People&#8221;).  I argue that Machan can not be “non-speciesist” because his argument is premised upon a denial of animal agency.<br />
 	In February, 2013 Steve Wise debated philosopher Tibor Machan at Columbia Law School concerning The Predation Problem and attempted to refute Machan’s position by extending moral agency along scientific lines to certain animals based upon cognitive research. While Wise&#8217;s work is undoubtedly an improvement in legal technology, it does not completely address the unresolved issue of agency in animals or speciesism. </p>
<p> Perhaps Aldo Leoplod had it right when he wrote in this essay &#8220;Thing Like  Mountain&#8221;, which is ostensibly a meditation upon shooting a she wolf, that each act of predation by a trophic predator has a role in reaching equilibrium and that is a very different type of moral argument than the one size fits all confines of the PP along the lines or moral rights has to offer.  Incidentally, Posthumanists would agree with Leopold and think the entire concept of the PP is ridiculous and epitomizes such limitations.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Consider the Oyster by audrey</title>
		<link>http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3866#comment-25130</link>
		<dc:creator>audrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 16:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3866#comment-25130</guid>
		<description>Interesting point, I was thinking a lot about that too, and do not consume any shell just for precaution: if there is any chance of a central nervous system, I won&#039;t eat them. But still find it difficult to justify...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting point, I was thinking a lot about that too, and do not consume any shell just for precaution: if there is any chance of a central nervous system, I won&#8217;t eat them. But still find it difficult to justify&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Meddling with Animal Morality by Mary Finelli</title>
		<link>http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25127</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Finelli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 15:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=3902#comment-25127</guid>
		<description>Other species who kill do so out of necessity or to hone their hunting skills. Cats, for example, could, as we know, end up out on their own at any time, where they may well need to have superb hunting skills if they are to survive. This is in contrast to the often unjustifiable reasons why humans kill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Other species who kill do so out of necessity or to hone their hunting skills. Cats, for example, could, as we know, end up out on their own at any time, where they may well need to have superb hunting skills if they are to survive. This is in contrast to the often unjustifiable reasons why humans kill.</p>
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